Talking People Out of Hate–Part 1

[Previously posted in December 2025. Seems to go along with the previous two posts.]

The conversation occurred between a black jazz musician and a white member of the Ku Klux Klan. The white man asked, “Why should I listen to you? You’re just a drive-by shooter and gang-banger.”

“Because I’m black?” replied the musician. “Perhaps that’s just where they live. On the other hand, you must be a serial killer. David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, I can’t think of one black serial killer.”

“That’s not fair,” came the reply.

The breakthrough created a conversation. Perhaps not a conversion. But a start. Breaking through stereotypes leads to better conversations. Perhaps we can see other humans as, well, human.

Thinking of peaceful relationships hopefully leading to joy during this Christmas Season (some people’s experience of Advent), I reflected on this podcast episode of Adam Grant’s Rethinking. (I’ve previously recommended his book.) The only link I could find was to the podcast app I use on iOS. You can find it, I’m sure, on Apple podcasts.

This is the description of the episode. I highly recommend listening. The Ku Klux Klan is one of the tightest-knit White supremacist groups in America—once someone joins, they’re usually in for life. But since the 1980s, over 200 members have renounced their affiliation, and all give credit to the same man: a Black jazz musician named Daryl Davis. In this episode, Adam is joined by Daryl and Jeff Schoep, a former leader of the largest neo-Nazi group in the US whose life and mind were changed by meeting and befriending Daryl. They discuss techniques for challenging ignorance and prejudice, analyze the cognitive dissonance experienced by members of extremist groups, and reflect on the conversations with Daryl that helped Jeff think again. They also explore the limits of empathy and curiosity.

I cannot explain how some people come to feel hatred toward other groups. I’ve read many books and papers. More to my interest concerns having civil conversations across divisions. As a liberal living in a very conservative area, I’ve had some practice. It’s a continuing education process. How can you reach out and gently help others break stereotypes? Perhaps also for me.

Some links for Host & Guest

Adam Grant (Instagram: @adamgrant | LinkedIn: @adammgrant | Website: https://adamgrant.net/) 

Daryl Davis (Instagram: @realdaryldavis | Website: https://www.daryldavis.com/) 

Jeff Schoep (Instagram: @jeff_schoep | Website: https://jeffschoep.com/) 

Links

Homepage

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Be Curious, Not Judgmental

Yesterday’s thought concerned how my job consists not of running around trying to “correct” everyone whose opinions were “wrong.” Rather, my job assigned by Jesus is to love others, even those who think and act differently from me.

This reminded me of one of my favorite TV scenes. Ted Lasso, the American Midwestern football coach, finds himself in England as coach of a Premier League soccer club. The wife gained possession of the club through a divorce from a rather nasty guy—Rupert.

The scene is the favorite club pub. Ted handles some darts. “You all like this game over here, don’t you?” he says as he tosses a couple of the darts at the board—right-handed. He and Rupert settle on a bet with major consequences for the club.

“Oh, I forgot, I’m left-handed,” admits Ted. They proceed to the climax where Ted needs three perfect throws. He tells a story of being underestimated his whole life and seeing a quote while taking his son to school—“Be curious, not judgmental.”

He hits the first one. “You see, if you’d been curious rather than judgmental, you’d have asked if I’d ever played darts before.”

“I would have said, ‘Yes, sir. Every Sunday afternoon with my dad from age 10 to 16…’ “

Research reveals the best approach to those potentially confrontational conversations is to be curious, not judgmental. Ask questions.

  • How did you come to that conclusion?
  • Where did you learn that?
  • Why do you think that’s true (right, useful)?
  • And more.

Curiosity, not judgmental, means truly listening to the person’s responses. You show concern and attempt at understanding. Questions asked calmly, not confrontationally. Do not sound like a defense attorney cross-examining a prosecution witness.

Be curious, not judgmental. That’s really hard for some of us. But exceptionally useful.

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Note to Self

I must take care to not lose equanimity when I see messages from someone purporting to speak for Jesus that contradict everything I’ve learned from studying the Gospels.

Just today I saw another social media post passing along blatant lies. This has become a regular occurrence. I don’t know what has so riled up the person to repost stuff from unknown sources. I wrote an extensive reply. Then I deleted it. Then I muted the person such that I will no longer see these things.

Even social discussions when someone blathers a rude opinion rarely deserves a reply. Maybe a “not everyone agrees with that.” And let it drop.

When called upon, it is my duty to defend Jesus.

My first job, according to Jesus, is to love those who oppose me—and Jesus.

I’m improving—but still trying.

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Like a Child; To a Child

Jesus’ followers asked him about greatest in his kingdom. They were constantly confused between what they had been taught about a coming kingdom on earth where the king of Israel would rule and what Jesus seemed to be teaching about a new kind of kingdom.

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Jesus answered a couple of ways. He first addressed what ancients have called the “beginner’s mind.” In other words, we must clear our minds of preconceived ideas and opinions to accept Jesus’ teachings.

He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.”

He did not stop there. Taking a second look at the relationship of children to us, he said,

“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

That means people such as I who write these blogs and others who teach others no matter where and what bear significant responsibility for what we teach. Are we passing along misinformation and ill-formed opinions we’ve picked up from spurious sources? Are we studying and meditating and trying to pass along spiritual truths compatible with Jesus’ teachings?

It’s worth pausing to reflect periodically assuring we’re keeping to the path.

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Will Jesus Know You?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ “

The constant stream of people I see in the news and people I meet otherwise who proclaim “Christian Values” astound me.  I wonder…does Jesus know them? To my observation (decidedly less valid than that of Jesus), doing the will of God seems to be somewhat lacking.

But then I reverse the lens of the camera kind of like camera mode on my iPhone to selfie mode. I wonder how I look to Jesus. Does he know me?

What about you?

Enter email address on the right and click follow to receive updates via email. I will never spam you. I’m not in that business! Thank you. You can also check out my book list and my 10-part video series on Romans as a Guid to Spiritual Formation.